JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

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JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Tuesday 2nd Aug 2011, 5:26

JD Custom LC2 Eprom conversion board
Fitting into audioline pt345 homebase (039aa)

Hello all. I have this Eprom board and am in the process of fitting it into my rig, but it appears that there are one or two pages missing from the instructions, and i am left with 5 wires and nowhere for them to go... I have figured out most of them and the eprom board is working on both bands (uk/eu) but only on channel 1 all other channels are screwed up.

The green wire on the eprom board is the one i'm stuck on... on the eprom board it goes to pin 3 of the MC145106 chip (osc in), but where on the radio should this wire go? any ideas?

here is the wiring PDF for the eprom and the schematic for the board in the radio.
LC2_ISS1_Info.pdf
JD Custom LC2 wiring with missing info
(1.79 MiB) Downloaded 548 times
uniace_200_sch.pdf
Audioline 345 schematic (aka uniden 200)
(292.95 KiB) Downloaded 415 times
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Wednesday 3rd Aug 2011, 0:07

it goes to pin 3 of the MC145106 chip
Pin 3 is the input for the 10.240 MHz reference frequency. There is presumably a crystal oscillator on the radio PCB that can supply this signal. The PLL won't work without it...

The '106 is an antique PLL that only goes to 3 or 4 MHz, so there must be another downmix oscillator somewhere for it to work, probably in the 15 meg range ((27 meg - 10.695)-15) = the 1 to 3 megs sent to the PLL's other input pin.

Those instructions look old - haven't seen typewriter written instructions in years :lol:

Google wasn't much help either:
> Anyone remember JD Custom in Edgware?
> Run by a guy called Joe Delgado - He used to make up a variety of boards for radio conversions.
> Fitting the boards was a doddle - although it took a good few hours to get the radios converted to operate 'cleanly'!

Oh god yes, he'd take a perfectly good working Cobra 148, screw a PA strip on the back, and a freq display on the front, turning it into a semi working dogs breakfast, for the price of a good used FT757.
There were literally hundreds of these "make your rig work better" people in the 80's and 90's, who would gladly add a few extra channels and disable modulation limiters, all for a few dollars, surgery performed between meals on the kitchen table. Did you have the same over there on the UK?

Cheers

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Wednesday 3rd Aug 2011, 1:03

Hi thanks for the reply, I'll upload a pic of the eprom board later so you can see it ... its certainly an early board i would say.

The 10.240mhz crystal is removed from the radio and fitted into the eprom board which has the 106 chip and also a cd4070be quad exclusive 'or' gate chip. It would appear that the eprom board has its own oscillator circuit on board.

I seem to remember now i think about it, that Mr Rick from ERC sent me those instructions a few years ago when i took the eprom board out of a scrapper uniden and i do believe that he told me he either designed the board or helped JD Custom to design it (Wish i remembered that yesterday lol).. Unfortunately Rick isn't available for a couple of weeks so i cant ask him about it ATM. Guess i'll wait till Rick is availible


Oh and yea there were loads of KTRD (kitchen table rig doctor) about over here too in the 80's and early 90's lol

EDIT: just re-read your post saying that pin 3 wants a 10.240 signal so maybe i'll try linking it to the 10.240 mhz crystal on the eprom board and see what happens...
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Wednesday 3rd Aug 2011, 2:18

The 10.240 signal is needed in 3 places, so maybe it's an OUTPUT back to the main board.

The signal does 3 things:

1) Reference freq for the PLL (where it's divided by 2048 to produce 5 Khz)

2) Second local oscillator on RX (10.695 - 10.240 = 455KHz)

3) Transmit upmixer (VCO upshifted by 455 Khz + 10.240 = 27 MHz)

The 10.240mhz crystal is removed from the radio and fitted into the eprom board
In that case, it's an output back to the RX and TX mixers in the radio.

Remove C59 and C60 from the radio, and connect the signal to the track that joins these 2 caps together.
This in turn will connect to R97 (TX mixer) and C12 (RX 2nd mixer).

Without that signal, the RX and TX performance is going to be severely limited :o

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Wednesday 3rd Aug 2011, 4:13

You are 100% correct in what you say.. the 10.240Mhz crystal is connected to pins 3 and 4 of the MC145106 on the eprom board, there is a yellow wire from pin 4 on the MC145106 that connects to C60 on the uniden board and on to where it needs to. And so the green wire is still homeless :(

Without the green wire (that is connected to pin 3 on the MC145106) connected to anything the radio is working correctly on channel 1 of both bands. 5 watts RF output power, on correct frequency and good audio. on any other than channel 1 the power drops right back to barely nothing and the frequency drops to 26.880 Mhz.

This eprom board can be used with TC9119 PLL's and also LC7137 PLL's so i'm wondering, maybe the green wire is not used in the Uniden radios with the TC9119 PLL.

Initially I thought that I may have soldered the ribbon wires to the PLL/channel selector back to front, so I reversed them with no difference.
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Friday 5th Aug 2011, 1:15

And so the green wire is still homeless
Cut it off, it must be for another application (radio). If the set receives and transmits OK on channel 1, the 10.240 signal is reaching the 3 places it needs to go.
on any other than channel 1 the power drops right back to barely nothing and the frequency drops to 26.880
It's "out of lock" and the 26.880 is probably just the low freq limit of a free running (unlocked) VCO. Confirm this be measuring the DC voltage at TP1 (or R52, a 10K resistor). If it's under 0.5V, the PLL is unlocked. Double-confirm this by measuring the voltage when it's on channel 1 - it should have over 1V on it (this will change slightly on TX due to the 455Khz VCO shift).

If that's OK, check for the reason. " Out of lock" can be caused by losing the 5V rail to the PLL (usually as a result of a programming line shorted to ground) or by incorrect programming. The possibility that the EPROM has lost it's memory is unlikely, but cannot be overlooked.

Without a circuit diagram of the mod board, I can't give you a "check the voltage on pin X" instruction.
Do 3 things:

- what is the number of the PLL and EPROM on the mod board? The part numbers will start with "MC and "27" respectively, given the age of the board.

- what other "major" parts such as ICs are on the board, and how do they connect to the EPROM / PLL?

- Do a list of the pin voltages of the ICs on channels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 20, and 40.

I then should be able to point you in the right direction.

Have fun...

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Friday 5th Aug 2011, 13:22

This should help... I spent all afternoon drawing it and it may contain errors, but should give you a reasonable idea how this eprom conversion board works:

Image

I'll check for voltage at TP1 tomorrow. I believe you could be right that its 'going out of lock' thats what it 'feels' like.
It is possible that the Eprom board may be corrupted... its been floating around waiting for me to re-fit it for over a year, and it was not stored in anti-static bag :doh:
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Saturday 6th Aug 2011, 2:12

Also check the connection to pin 6 of the PLL - it selects the divide ratio (1024 or 2048). I can't see the need for this, as it would have to be set for 2048 to allow the thing to transmit.
((10240 / 2048) * 91) = 455 Khz, which is the TX/RX shift. SSB sets don't need the offset but would need a clarifier circuit... which is not present.

The 15 Mhz signal I mentioned earlier is generated by a frequency tripler (the 68p cap and the bottom BC549), so you won't find that crystal there.
The 10.24Mhz is divided by 2 and appears at pin 5. (10.24/2)*3 = 15.360 Mhz. This is used to downmix the PLL to something the old PLL can handle OK.
If channel 1 is working, the tripler must be OK.

If you can't work out the fault, let us know the PLL and EPROM pin voltages on the channels nentioned earlier.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Monday 8th Aug 2011, 4:31

Ok it looks like the eprom may be bad. Here are some voltages:

TC9119p PLL in uniden radio:

Pins 10 to 18:
7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 0 Ch 1
7 0 0 0 0 7 7 7 0 Ch 2
7 0 0 7 0 7 7 7 0 Ch 3
0 7 0 7 7 7 7 7 0 Ch 4
0 0 0 7 0 7 7 7 0 Ch 5
0 0 7 0 0 7 0 7 0 Ch 20
0 0 7 0 0 0 7 0 0 Ch 40

with ribbon cable to eprom board connected, pins 10 and 17 drop to about 4.5v


MC145106 PLL on eprom board:

Pins 10 to 18:
0 0 4 4 0 4 0 4 0 Ch 1
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 2
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 3
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 4
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 5
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 20
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ch 40

So the eprom is getting correct signals from channel selector/TC9119 PLL and on any other than channel 1, it would appear that the eprom is not sending the right signals to the MC145106 PLL chip.
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 1:45

Voltages on pins 3 to 10 (the address lines) are needed - you could have a wiring mistake here and be calling up unprogrammed area inside the EPROM.

Does the voltage at pin 6 change between ch. 40 and any other channel? It should stay the same.

Also, I can safely assume you do not have a EPROM programmer? A hex dump of the contents would make it a lot easier to see what input was supposed to go where...

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 2:07

pins 10 through 18 on the TC9119 goto pins 3 through 10 on the eprom, although now i notice that pin 10 and pin 18 go through the or gate chip so i will double check those.

I do not have a Eprom programmer, but i do have a homebrew eprom reader circuit that plugs into a PC serial port, that i use to recover lost supervisor passwords on IBM laptops... Maybe i could use this to read the Eprom on the board. The eprom reader has 3 wires which goto SDA, SCL and Ground... guess i'll look for a datasheet for the eprom to see if it has the required pins.
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by zodiac » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 3:23

Don't know if this is of any use to you Norm, this is for the ISS3 LC1 board
160 Codes.gif
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Twice it's length from halfway.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 5:36

Thanks Dave i'll Check those against my eprom board to see if its getting the correct inputs. (assuming that / is high and blank is low).

if the eprom is getting the correct inputs but incorrect outputs, can i assume that the eprom is bad?
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by zodiac » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 10:29

Yes Norm,
High is / and blank is low. Don't forget they are different boards, mine is the ISS3 and uses a 2732 EPROM not the 2764,
having said that the switch codes to the EPROM input pins should be the same, they can't change.
I can offer to read your EPROM for you so you'll have the program that's in it.
The chart above is what Rick sent me some time ago and there are different versions of the conversion as Rick will tel you.
Dave.
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Twice it's length from halfway.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Wednesday 10th Aug 2011, 12:23

Rick sent me the wiring info for my eprom board ages ago when i took it out of a scrap radio, but unfortunately he's away at the moment so i cant ask him about it.
I'll be testing the eprom input voltages tomorrow... i'm pretty sure they will be ok, as i double checked that the radio was working perfectly before fitting the eprom.

I did look today for a PLL truth chart for the President Jackson which uses the MC145106 PLL, my thinking is that on midband the program pins on the MC145106 on the eprom board (output from the eprom) should be the same as the Jackson... however my search was fruitless :-(
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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Thursday 11th Aug 2011, 1:38

The eprom reader has 3 wires which goto SDA, SCL and Ground
That's an EEPROM reader, not an EPROM - that extra E at the start indicates a completely different component.

An EEPROM is "serial" - only 2 wires are needed for date transfer (SDA and SCL).
An EPROM is parallel a 64KB device would need 24 wires for data transfer.

EPROM is faster (all bits are transferred simultaneously) but needs a lot more trackwork on the board.
EEPROM is slower (but still perfectly adequate for most uses) but needs just 4 connections - power, ground, data (SDA), and clock(SCL).

They are both non-volatile memory devices but the interface is very different.
If you are familiar with modern computers, its like comparing PATA(IDE) and SATA hard drives.
Both store your data, but the connection to the motherboard is completely different.

EEPROM really needs a micro to do the data transfers, that's why one of these is not used on your board.
We use EEPROM and an ARM microprocessor on our Digiswitch boards, haven't used an EPROM for a few years now.
if the eprom is getting the correct inputs but incorrect outputs, can i assume that the eprom is bad?
Assuming you have the addresses (inputs) connected correctly, yes.

As Dave nicely to read the EPROM for you, post the contents as a hex dump here, and we should be able to work out from there where things have gone wrong.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by zodiac » Thursday 11th Aug 2011, 2:42

Norm,
Don't bother looking for a truth chart for any other radio that uses the 145106 PLL, it won't help you, It'll just make matters worse.
The channel switch codes used for the TC 9??? PLL's are not in any specific order that makes sense, as you can see in the list above, there all over the place.
I'll try to load another chart I have to see if that's any better. The chart below is the original channel switch codes using the standard factory fitted PLL.
Attachments
Frequency_Chart.png
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How far is it.
Twice it's length from halfway.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Saturday 13th Aug 2011, 1:37

All the eprom inputs from the TC9119 to the eprom test fine, so I tested the output pins and they were mostly wrong.

I have took the eprom board out of the radio, and happened to be chatting to a retired radio doc (in tesco's lol) who took the eprom board home to test it. His report is: "4 of the programmable output pins of the eprom are dead"

So I've now put my audioline back to standard 40ch and will leave it like that (unless I happen find a cheap board or TC9106 chip off ebay to piggyback sometime)... I hardly ever use the audioline so its not a problem.

Thanks for all your help folks!
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by zodiac » Saturday 13th Aug 2011, 3:59

Norm,
You could have sent it to me and I would have programmed you another one, as long as the original program is stil on it.
Dave.
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Twice it's length from halfway.

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Saturday 13th Aug 2011, 6:55

i'm not sure if you could read the program with 4 dead legs on the eprom... I'll freely send it to you if you fancy having a play with it, but its not worth me spending much money on. PM me your address
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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Monday 15th Aug 2011, 0:34

The channel switch codes used for the TC 9??? PLL's are not in any specific order that makes sense, as you can see in the list above, there all over the place.
It's done that way to save cost - the address lines of the PLLs ROM are connected to the LED channel readout pins of the channel switch. This saves a penny or two as seperate switch lines for the PLL and channel readout are no longer needed.
i'm not sure if you could read the program with 4 dead legs on the eprom
No, you wouldn't be able to. However, 4 dead data lines is extremely unlikely, another fault on the board or a wiring mistake will make it look like the EPROM is at fault.
Pull it out and 95% of the time they read good in a standalone reader.

Another thing to do is do away with the EPROM altogether and connect the PLL to a PC.
You'll have scanning, searching, 26-29 Mhz (if the VCO and mixers can handle the bandwidth), a spectrum display, and a channel activity log.
The WINScanner software is free from http://malzev.tripod.com/radiodoc/software.htm along with details on how to connect the PC to the radio.
You might have to ask him kindly for a UK version though and supply him with a "truth chart" showing what pins control what frequency...

Have fun

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Monday 15th Aug 2011, 1:04

I have the eprom out and ready to send to Dave when the post office opens.. then we will know whats going on with it and weather it will read or not. I'm pretty sure the eprom is corrupted, but it may not be...

Using the channel display lines to run the PLL switching is a great idea, although annoying if you are trying to figure out the truth chart :roll:

Connecting the radio to the computer sounds like fun 8) I have an old major M588 in the shed maybe i'll have a play with that and my old laptop... (i was planning to modify the 588, by removing the channel selector and fitting 6 individual switches to allow manual binary programming for channel selection.. i saw it mentioned on a forum somewhere that it could be done and it sounded fun... thankfully the PLL02A truth chart is simple binary)
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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Monday 15th Aug 2011, 1:13

I have an old major M588 in the shed
There is a PLL02A version of the scanner app - hook that up and you'll have more channels than you would now what to do with :lol:

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by Warf135 » Sunday 21st Aug 2011, 6:17

Thanks to Dave (Zodiac), here is a dump of the eprom:
In .hex format http://normsweb.com/ext/eprom.hex
In .txt format http://normsweb.com/ext/eprom.txt

It seems like it may be corrupted as the data makes no sense (not that I know a lot about hex programming), and looks totally completely different to the V3 eprom data
Norm

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Re: JD Custom LC2 (iss1) Eprom conversion - TC9119

Post by lbcomms » Wednesday 24th Aug 2011, 11:57

"4 of the programmable output pins of the eprom are dead"
They are all OK, all 8 lines working are needed to show the numbers you have in the hex dump.

However, it looks like data line D4 (the least sig bit of the tens digit) is in trouble - nearly (but not all) of the combinations are high.
This indicates a partially erased device - erasing then with UV light sets all the bits high, not low.

Obtaining the correct data and reprograming it should get the board going again.

If you can't get the correct data (i.e. by copying it from an identical working board) you would have to code it from scratch - not really viable other than as a learning exercise.
If you decide to go down that path, you'll need an EPROM programmer and a UV eraser. A couple of hex thumbwheel switches (to figure out the N-Codes) will make this job a bit easier.

Enjoy...

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